I've been reading the posts of all the arm chair experts Monday morning quaterbacking what happened in this case. I would bet that maybe 1 or 2 of you have spoken to the DRIVER to ask him what happened. Having failed this basic investigatory step, you have formed your opinions on a video and "report" written by someone who demonstrates poor judgment by posting this on the internet without even consulting the car owner/driver. (I could come up with a list of questions about his "findings" that would have even him wondering who was driving the car) I know the driver feels bad enough about the Viper without you "experts" opining about what YOU think he did or didn't do.

This was a driving SCHOOL and it is POSSIBLE a MISTAKE was made. I am assuming each of us who drives competitively had a first time. Going out on a limb, I would bet that we all have made mistakes. Sometimes we have even missed a shift or ended up in the wrong gear. Sometimes we have gotten lucky and pulled out of it but anyone who thinks it's all skill and luck or fate played no role is a fool.

This is a big game and we all take risks doing it. This guy started right. He went to a school, took the class, toured the track and even had an instructor in the car as he learned the track. He gradually worked up to speed as he felt comfortable doing so. Turns out he made a mistake and the a**h*** instructor decided to cover his *** and embarass him on the www by posting this report. Now we are doing it to him.

I hope each of us remembers how we felt as we were writing these posts with such profound observations and expert driving advice. I also hope that when you find yourself sitting on the track *** backwards with oil, coolant and urine dripping on the track that you remember writing your post.

I've been there and know how it feels. I learned from it and he will too. With all the great advice he's getting from you, I would be surprised if he ever subjects himself to that risk again.

Oh... and one last thought...Fast Freddy...I have strong doubts that you would ever learn from this experience. Well if it involved a concussion and you had no helmet the message might get through. I hope to meet you one day so you can tell me whether I know how to drive and how great you are.

Viper ownership is like being a parent...you need no qualifications to become one. Too bad!

By the way, the car in my avatar is the one you watched on the video. It was also the car used in the Jack in the Box commercial. I sold it to a guy who was so excited about getting it that I will never forget the smile as he drove it away.
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You made excellent points gtsviper, we learn from our mistakes and we all make them.

Constructive comments and analysis in this case, no matter how speculative, are useful because they make us think and ultimately learn more about situations that are quite serious.

I do feel bad when anyone has an accident and unfortunately some lessons do come at a higher price. But I hope this doesn't discourage the driver involved or anyone else from realizing their potential. The primary focus of any driving school is to keep you safe while you learn.

That being said;

From the looks of the video clip this happened very fast.

When someone downshifts improperly as in this case, it isn't the weight transfer or the unsettling of the car that poses the major problem, but the locking of the rear wheels. When this occurs in a turn, it instantly leaves the front wheels with all the grip and the car swaps ends. If the situation is realized quickly enough and the clutch depressed, the rear wheels will roll again and a steering correction may salvage the deal.

When students are advised to "put both feet in" and ride out an event, it is usually the best advice. More serious problems occur when someone tries to "save" a situation that is too far gone. I have seen many accidents where people have hooked into a wall on the inside of a turn as the car snaps back after a late steering correction, where there was nothing to hit if they had just spun off the track in the direction they started off in.

The video shows the car hitting the inside wall head on, but it was a still a glancing blow as demonstrated by the direction of the resulting energy spinning the car further down the track after impact. Had the inexperienced student made an improper steering correction, the car might have hooked back up the track to the outside wall and possibly had a much more serious impact because the energy would have been more focused in that one direction. Who knows?

My point is that with limited ability and experience, students are still better off following the recommended safety procedures that driving programs attempt to teach. The comments by the instructor may have been what he thought he himself could have done at the time, but probably not what the student should have attempted.

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Sonny
#31 ~ ViperDays

As a racer, I make mistakes every time I get in my car. Most are little, from overbraking before turn in (safe, but slow), to early apexing and putting two wheels off (not so safe, but very recoverable). But I have spun many times and hit things, too.

It sounds like this new driver was doing everything right, he (at worst) made an error at a bad location. So what? It was bad luck to have torn up his car, but good luck that no one was hurt. So he learns from the experience.

The rest of us should be thinking "there, but for the grace of God, go I," not chastising the driver for some supposed error.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sonny 00 GTS ACR:
When students are advised to "put both feet in" and ride out an event, it is usually the best advice. More serious problems occur when someone tries to "save" a situation that is too far gone. I have seen many accidents where people have hooked into a wall on the inside of a turn as the car snaps back after a late steering correction, where there was nothing to hit if they had just spun off the track in the direction they started off in.

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OK Sonny,

Picture this scenario at the Kink at Road America. Which wall would you choose? (been there, done that) In my case, it was a throttle steer correction at track-out after a tire pressure adjustment. I breathed the throttle just a bit too abrubtly and went to the inside, but it didn't hurt.

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GTS Dean - Team Texas

quote:

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Originally posted by GTS Dean:
OK Sonny,

Picture this scenario at the Kink at Road America. Which wall would you choose? (been there, done that) In my case, it was a throttle steer correction at track-out after a tire pressure adjustment. I breathed the throttle just a bit too abrubtly and went to the inside, but it didn't hurt.

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Wow! 10 minutes with a sawsall and ya got an RT10 there.

(just wanted to lighten the discussion)

OK Sonny,

Picture this scenario at the Kink at Road America. Which wall would you choose? (been there, done that) In my case, it was a throttle steer correction at track-out after a tire pressure adjustment. I breathed the throttle just a bit too abruptly and went to the inside, but it didn't hurt.

Well there you have it Dean, you're not supposed to lift for the kink!

I'm sure you realize that my point was that sliding off the track is always preferable to hitting a wall, but if you have to choose which one to hit - best of luck! Looks like you made the right choice.

I knew the situation was dire. I also knew that if the rear continued left, my side of the car was going to get hit and it would hurt. I got some decel sliding back across the track instead of zero across the grass to the outside.

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GTS Dean - Team Texas

I spoke to the driver after he had been interviewed by the track officials. It was a heartbreaking experience seeeing this happen to a new Viper owner who was trying to do a very good thing by getting driving school instruction. This was his first track experience. His family was there and I felt awful for them. He's a great guy and simply made a big mistake at a very dangerous turn.

What he told me was pretty consistent with the instructor's report as to what happened. It is not uncommon for a novice Viper driver to want to downshift every time they approach a corner on the track. When I instruct a novice, I tell them to put their car in 4th gear and keep it there all the way around the track so that we can learn the proper line. I have never had a novice student that even knew how to heel/toe downshift.

Feeling the desire to downshift is a habit picked up from driving on the street. The problem is that very few Viper owners have a lot of experience on the street downshifting to negotiate sharp turns at over 100 MPH. He should not have downshifted into 3rd gear and he certainly should not have downshifted into 2nd gear. His inexperience resulted in a catastrophic mistake at the worst turn on the track.

Marv is correct in his analysis of Turn 1. An experienced Viper racer will short shift from 3rd gear to 4th gear between Turns 9 and 10, modulate the throttle to maintain speed of 105-110 MPH between Turn 10 and Turn 11, then hit WOT at the apex to Turn 11 which will result in a speed something around 135 MPH past the start finish line on the front straight. You stay to the far right outside wall and lightly brake in a straight line, then you gently add throttle while entering and early apexing Turn 1. At the apex (which is the corner of the concrete wall on your left) you are crossing over the transition bump from the oval to the road course. It is extremely unsettling to the Viper's suspension and it is highly recommended that you go over the bump under throttle to maintain weight on the rear tires. Once past the turn 1 apex, you do hard braking and downshift into 3rd gear to complete the 210 degree left handed Turn 2. Larry Pond and his instructors taught us at the 1998 Viper Days event to make sure you go over the bump under throttle, not braking. Trail braking through Turn 1 is a very risky move even for an experienced driver like Fast Freddy. The only time I do it in Turn 1 is if I made a mistake in not scrubbing off enough speed in my straight-line braking to negotiate the corner. I say a Hail Mary after the run session.

I was shocked to see the instructor's write-up posted on the internet, however, I thought it was very thorough and well-written. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually helps the driver from an insurance standpoint. There is no question that the driver was a student in a driving school at the time of the accident.

As for the lap time discussion, I've logged thousands of laps on this track and never broken out of the 1:06's. This is also what the very fastest Cars in the Motorola Cup/Grand Am Cup run. In a Viper of any kind, a 1:10 during a 2-hour race with 33 other cars on the track is very fast and reflects an experienced driving level. Depending on traffic, anything under 1:10 is exceptional and can rarely be maintained over the course of even a 30-minute sprint race. Last weekend Muzzy set a new track record for a stock-engine Viper on used street tires with a 1:05.6. He won the pole and the race from start to finish in a 29-car field. Ron Misjak's lap of 1:05 back in 1998 was very fast. It was also on an open track in SOLO competition with a 600+ HP SVS motor and stickered Goodyear race slicks. I believe we can now see the 1:04's on Goodyear race slicks, even in our stock-engined Vipers. This is the result of improved aerodynamics and suspension setups.

When Viper Days returns to PIR in April 2003, I'm sure Skip's instructors will be very anal about how to approach Turn 1. Other than between turns 7 and 9, this whole track is bordered by concrete walls on either one or both sides. If you make a huge nmistake, it is likely you'll become acquainted with Fat Albert's Paint and Body Shop.